Garbage & Food with Mariel & Norman
below is an edited conversation between artists Norman Dixon and Mariel Capanna, moderated by Samantha Mitchell and Pearl Corry from Wednesday, March 31st, 2021
Mariel Capanna: Norman your pieces look really beautiful in this book, they printed so well, they’re so strong.
Norman Dixon: Thank you!
MC: I don’t know if you remember this but I curated a show called wordshapes at the Woodmere Art Museum and I had an opportunity to look through the archive at Center for Creative Works and your work – the work that’s in this book – caught my attention right away.
ND: Thank you.
MC: it was one of the first groups of work that I scooped up and said this has to be in the show.
ND: Yeah!
Samantha Mitchell: So I was thinking it might be nice to get you guys together to chat a bit about your work because I admire some similar themes that both of you guys work with, specifically around things that are thrown away/garbage/trash, and also food! Love of food and inclusion of food imagery and talking about food. It would also be cool if you could share some thoughts about your practice and have a chat, if that’s ok?
MC: Yeah that sounds really nice, I’m so glad to connect!
SM: Norman can we look at some images of your work and you can tell us a bit about it?
ND: Yeah!
SM: Ok this one looks like a really great list… Is this a shopping list?
ND: It’s a food list. Like a food list.
MC: I’ve been wondering Norman, a lot of your paintings and drawings start off with Dear Christine or Dear Aretha Franklin or Dear someone… so it starts off feeling like a letter and then it’s a long list of food. Do you think of these as letters to people or as lists? Or both?
ND: They’re both.
MC: Are the lists things that you would want to get? Are they kind of like a shopping list? Or are they memories, things that you remember eating?
ND: I like to eat.
SM: Do you ever make a list and take it with you to go shopping in a supermarket?
ND: No.
SM: So these are more like foods that you love and have eaten?
ND: Yeah.
SM: Let’s look at another one… who is T A team?
ND: My favorite TV show, that’s THE A TEAM, with Mr. T.
MC: Meatloaf, hamburger,
ND: Hamburger, fries and ketchup
MC: Do you usually put ketchup on your hamburgers?
ND: Yeah.
MC: I’m more of a mustard/relish person.
ND: Yeah.
Pearl Corry: On this one the paint looks like ketchup on there.
ND: Yeah
MC: That’s true! Here it looks like ketchup and maybe the color of two buns.
PC: Are these foods that Mr. T likes to eat?
ND: Yeah he likes to eat hamburgers and French fries.
SM: And this one is like a Happy Birthday card
ND: For my sister’s birthday.
MC: Christine Perry, is that your sister?
ND: Yeah it’s her birthday.
MC: Do you remember having chicken wings and cake and ice cream on her birthday?
ND: Yeah, she made that all for her birthday.
SM: Lots of these letters are to Christine Perry, you must really think about her a lot.
ND: I love her, yeah.
SM: What is Christine Perry’s favorite food?
ND: She likes fried chicken, potato salad, and cornbread.
MC: What is the best fried chicken that you’ve ever had? Is there someone who makes the best fried chicken?
ND: She do, Christine Perry.
MC: Well no wonder you love her so much!
SM: She’s your sister and the best fried chicken cook?
ND: Yeah, I help her.
SM: Do you like cooking Norman?
ND: Yeah! I like to cook fried fish and potato salad.
MC: I see a lot of cornflakes in these lists, do you used the cornflakes to make the fried chicken? Or are the cornflakes for cereal?
ND: Cornflakes for cereal.
MC: Ok. Yeah. There’s a lot of love in these drawings, I see the word “love” in almost every single one, but I also sense a lot of love for all of these foods.
SM: Yeah this one has “hug” in it also.
MC: I like thinking of a hug as part of a meal with lemonade and meatballs.
SM: I love this one, did you use a pen that you dip in ink?
ND: Yeah I did it with that one.
SM: I love the way the lines look in these letters, the way it pools out at different points.
MC: It’s really beautiful. Norman do you paint the paper first and then write the list on top?
ND: Yeah I paint the paper first and then I write on top.
MC: This one has cookies and brown sugar and eggs, there are some ingredients for cookies in there.
SM: Do you ever bake cookies?
ND: Yeah.
MC: I baked some chocolate chip cookies the other day that I sent in the mail to some friends. Food is a really nice way to connect to people I think, whether your sitting at a meal together at the table or sending food at a distance. Who is this letter to? Natasha?
ND: That’s my ex-girlfriend, yeah!
MC: did you have fried chicken with your ex-girlfriend too?
ND: Yeah!
MC: This one also has a lot of breakfast foods too – pancakes, waffles, eggs, toast. When you make these lists you usually start with friend chicken, how do you decide what comes next?
SM: I really love the painting in this one.
MC: Me too it really reminds me of BBQ – not just the sauce but also the heat of the BBQ.
ND: I paint while I’m at the studio, I like about painting the picture I like painting big letters.
MC: This is one of my favorites because it starts out Dear Aretha Franklin and I love Aretha Franklin. One of the first CDs I ever owned was a greatest hits Aretha Franklin album. And I actually watched a documentary two days ago about Muscle Shoals the town in Alabama where Aretha Franklin recorded the song I Never Loved a Man the Way I love You. Do you have a favorite Aretha Franklin song?
ND: Chain Chain.
SM: Chain of Fools, yeah.
MC: That’s a really good one. One thing I noticed about this list is that usually you start with fried chicken but this one starts with peach cobbler. Is there a reason you started with peach cobbler for Aretha franklin?
ND: Yeah because that’s her favorite! Also fried chicken macaroni and cheese and cornbread and shrimp.
MC: And respect! I think it’s good to have respect as part of a meal. As part of a list of food.
SM: So Norman I was curious what Aretha’s favorite food was, and according to a 1967 interview I just found it was chitlins.
MC: Yum!
SM: And mac and cheese.
MC: Well there you go it’s in there, she’s getting her mac n cheese. Also in this one I like how you start with dessert, dessert first.
PC: Do you ever like to eat dessert first?
ND: Yeah!
SM: I love how this one is inside of a box with wheels on the bottom, like a truck.
MC: I’m going to be moving out of Utah soon, and I’ve been thinking about how to pack everything, like do I put it inside a truck or a box, and this feels kind of like you’ve packed the memory of all of these foods into a moving box that you can transport wherever you want it.
SM: Mariel let’s take a look at some of your work. Can you tell us a little bit about what the process of making a fresco is like?
MC: Yeah, so a fresco is usually a wall painting, so a painting made directly on to or into a wall. But it’s not necessarily a wall painting. The thing that makes a fresco a fresco is that its painting into freshly applied lime plaster so in order to make a fresco I mix slaked lime, which is a kind of white putty-like material made out of limestone that’s been heated up and hydrated, I mix slaked lime with sand, usually riverbed sand, and that turns into a plaster that I can apply either directly to a wall or in the case of the work that’s in MEMENTO MORI I applied the plaster directly either to drywall scraps that I found in the trash or to pieces of plywood that were cut into these shapes.
SM: So these ones are all different sizes and shapes?
MC: Yeah, so once I’ve applied the plaster I paint into it while it’s still wet and hasn’t yet cured, I paint into it with earth pigments suspension or sometimes mineral pigment suspension. Yeah, and then the color becomes a crystalized part of the surface of the plaster.
SM: So It dries in there?
MC: Yeah!
SM: There’s so much great work on here, is there a place where you wanted to start?
MC: Well maybe since you’re here on this project called “Con/Safos” if you scroll down a little bit there’s a detail right there on the right that’s also kind of like a list of things, it’s pictures rather than words. I studied fresco painting in Florence with a conservator and while I was in Italy I saw lots and lots of wall paintings, and then I moved to Los Angeles and I saw a different kind of wall painting that
I think you might really like Norman, in LA on the outside of a lot of stores there are paintings of all of the foods that you can find and buy in the store, so there will be chicken and chips and Gatorade and Doritos and all kinds of things painted onto the wall. So I decided to nod toward these sign paintings while I was working with Rafa on this fresco mural.
SM: There are some paintings like that in Philadelphia but they’re usually just like one giant hoagie on the outside of a deli.
MC: Right, yeah I’ve seen these around. People like to send me pictures of those wall paintings whenever they see them they think of me.
SM: Let’s look at the work that’s in MEMENTO MORI.
PC: Could you show Mariel the work that we looked at?
ND: Yeah!
(Norman holds up a dummy copy of the MEMENTO MORI book to the camera)
PC: We were talking about the works that are in here, they’re super cool and Norman picked a favorite that he wanted to share.
MC: I’d love to know which one is your favorite.
ND: This one
MC: I like that one too, that’s probably one of my favorites.
SM: Norman what do you like about that piece?
ND: I like that piece, I like the chairs and stuff in there.
PC: Do you remember seeing the golden arches there?
ND: And the McDonalds. I like McDonalds.
SM: What’s your favorite thing to get at McDonalds?
ND: Hamburgers.
MC: I think I’ve seen you include hamburgers in some of your artworks. The word “hamburger.” I always see “fried chicken” in your work, that’s usually the first thing I see.
SM: I can also see a little Pepsi in here.
MC: So these fresco fragments are all bits and pieces taken from a larger fresco that I made in a garage in North Little Rock Arkansas. So all of the imagery I found in the backgrounds and the edges of family photographs of the family that lives in the house where I made this fresco mural. So I would look through all of these photo albums into the family photos and family memories and would just grab whatever – all of the shapes and colors that I saw from the backgrounds and edges. So sometimes I would see a horse in the background, or a cup or a chair, or a dining room table, and I would just try to make notes of all of those little things that I saw, and to put them together into a kind of composite image or composite memory. Oh and there’s ketchup and mustard in there, which we could use to put on your hamburger.
ND: Yeah!
MC: I guess, you know, all of your artwork Norman, these lists of food, I think the paintings that I tend to make are so much about place and I feel like I can imagine eating all of the foods that you list in the places that I paint… oh yeah here it looks like there’s a kind of picnic in this one with bananas and I don’t know if those are tomatoes or what, some kinds of fruits or vegetables.
SM: And a watermelon hanging out over here. I feel like your work – Norman and Mariel – your work goes really nicely together because they’re both kind of collections of specific things that are brought together without anything in between them, like no filler (laughs) they’re just these kind of offerings of food or objects, which is really cool because just by themselves they create an environment, or a feeling.
MC: Yeah, I guess in the case of both of our work it’s kind of like incomplete sentences that are missing verbs or conjunctions or something, like a series of commas in between each thing, like the words and pictures if they’re put next to each other maybe they’ll make some sort of collage like sense.
SM: And I like how, Mariel, you include all of these pieces of clothing without including actual bodies, they’re kind of filled out like someone’s in them but there’s no faces or hands.
MC: Yeah, I think a lot of this is because when I’m painting I’m always working from moving images, so imagery is going by really quickly and the easiest thing for me to latch onto and to put down as a note is like a color and shape, so I’ll grab that from a shirt or pair of pants or like an umbrella or something like that, but it’s also… I think by not including faces or bodies or the details of a person it keeps these images open so that anyone can put themselves into it.
SM: Norman I’m wondering if you’d like to talk a little bit about what you’re working on now, in particular your trash endeavors.
MC: Yeah I heard that you are a Philadelphia Trash Ambassador, I feel very honored to be speaking to a Philadelphia Trash Ambassador.
ND: Yeah! Yes I am.
MC: So what do you do as a Trash Ambassador?
ND: I put the trash into the trash bins, put the leaves in, put the stuff in there and keep it clean.
SM: Do you do that in your neighborhood?
ND: Yes I do.
MC: What neighborhood do you live in?
ND: I live on Wheeler street in Philadelphia.
MC: Oh how cool! So trash is starting to make its way into your paintings?
PC: These are things that Norman picked up this morning as we were leaving for the studio.
MC: Wow, ok so you’re starting to make lists of the things that you find in the trash and the things that you clean up?
ND: Yeah, yes I did.
MC: These lists are very similar to the lists of food!
ND: But they’re lists of garbage.
PC: A lot of the packaging from foods.
MC: I think it’s really inspiring that you’re doing this work to clean up the city. So these are things that you found today?
ND: A couple of weeks ago.
MC: Do you write things down as you pick them up or later on?
ND: I write them later in the day. I like the job. I like the garbage, I like to pick trash off of the ground.
SM: Norman do you ever find anything in the trash that you want to paint on and make into a piece of art?
ND: Yeah, I did this. It’s a bus, a trash truck.
(Norman holds up the truck)
MC: What kind of package is that?
(Norman turns it over)
ND: A cereal box.
MC: A cereal box is a great thing to paint on. It’s a really nice way to clean up the city and reuse materials
SM: I really like the colors you used, I wish garbage trucks were those colors.
ND: I’m painting my yard signs, I’m doing a yard sign project.
(Norman gestures to some work behind him in the studio)
PC: So this one isn’t painted, there are some that are drying, but he’s painting yard signs for people to purchase so they can have art in their yards, all about not littering.
MC: That’s a great idea. So not only are you picking up trash but you’re spreading the word that people should not litter and pick up trash to keep the city clean. It sounds like you’re a real steward of the neighborhood.
ND: Yeah.
MC: Do you know what you’re going to paint on this sign?
ND: My business – Norman’s Clean Up Business Trash Business. Norman’s Clean-up Service.
SM: You’re making some shirts, right Norman?
ND: I’m making shirts!
MC: Are you painting directly onto the shirts? Or are they prints?
PC: We sent an email today to Mr. Terrill [Haigler, Philadelphia sanitation worker and trash activist, @_yafavtrashman]
ND: Mr. Terril Haigler, yeah.
MC: He’s amazing. A local hero, that’s great that you’re working with him. How can I find out more about the t shirts? I’d love to buy one when it’s available.
ND: Norman’s clean up business dot com.
SM: You have a website?
PC: In progress, not quite yet. We just reached out to Terril today to ask about a timeline for the shirts, so we should know pretty soon.
SM: Oh so Terril is making them?
PC: Yeah he’s going to be printing them for Norman!
MC: Norman have you always been interested in trash or is this a new thing for you?
ND: I’ve always cleaned up trash, I love this job.
MC: It’s really great to love your job, I think people will really appreciate what you’re doing. Do you work by yourself when you’re doing your job or other people when you pick up trash?
ND: I work by myself.
MC: So sometimes your painting and sometimes you’re picking up trash.
ND: Yeah
MC: Sometimes you’re probably eating fried chicken and potato salad.
ND: Yeah.
SM: Mariel what are you working on these days?
MC: Well, I had a show at Adams and Ollman in March that just came down, so I showed a group of paintings there, and since then I’m working on a mural project in a house in Palo Alto, California. And then I’ll be working at Skowhegan at an artist residency in Maine this summer doing more fresco projects, yeah. So that’s what’s up with me! I have a very small studio in Salt Lake City, Utah but I’ll be moving out of it pretty soon so I’m not starting any new projects in there right now. Every time I move I realize that moving creates a lot of trash, and that’s been on my mind – as much as possible I want to avoid creating a lot of trash, and get better at finding and reusing the materials that are around, so… yeah, we’ll see how that works with this move.
SM: Are you driving east?
MC: Yes, I have not flown in a long time, have been driving everywhere.
PC: Norman do you have some questions for Mariel?
ND: I like your paintings!
MC: Thanks! I’m really glad that we’ve had a chance to connect! I admire your work and I’m glad I got to hear a little more about the foods you write about, about Christine Perry, and I also am so excited to hear about your new business and all of the good work you’re doing cleaning up your neighborhood picking up trash, spreading the word, yeah. You’re gonna inspire me to become a trash Ambassador in my neighborhood.
ND: Yeah!
MC: It’s really good work and a good thing to do, so I’ll follow your lead!
ND: Yeah!
MC: And I hope that I’ll have a chance to see the new work you’re making, all of the lists of the trash that you’re finding, it seems like you’ll have an endless list of materials to work on and with from the things that you’re finding in the trash.
ND: Yeah.
MC: That’s an exciting thing for me to realize that just walking outside and walking around the block I might find some paper to work on or some things to paint about.
SM: It’s great to be inspired by trash, because there’s always lots of it to see! Especially in Philadelphia!